ATHEISTS AND DEATHBED CONVERSIONS

[Heike Hoffmann]

How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation
for what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could
you please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics,
and Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may
await them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or
cowards?.

Heike Hoffmann

[Apostate]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation
for what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could
you please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics,
and Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may
await them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or
cowards?.
Heike Hoffmann

Weaklings? Fools?

There are lots of possibilities. I don't know how well my rational faculties will be
operating in my last hours. I'm a mammal, same as everyone else, and prone
to animal-based passions and instincts. I have lots of moments when my first
impulse (and sometimes, my final one) doesn't meet my own standards, when
I'm working harder at being who I think I ought to be, have learned to be.

So my best considered opinion is that such last-minute conversions ought to be taken
with a liberal dose of salt (even by any Almighty being that might turn out not, after
all, to have been an idle conjecture/nightmare.) I'm more impressed by the
holdouts-to-the-end, like Carl Sagan (only because he's the first to come to mind.)

Meta: in any case, I'm unable to believe that an almighty being would have it in hir
makeup to be the vindictive thug, never mind the humorless dick, that Certain Gawds
We've Heard About are reputed to be.
--
Apostate alt.atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Deputy Director in Charge of Being Paid,
Department of Redundancy Department

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure
and the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell

"Mr. Worf, set phasers on "Fuck You" and fire at will."
. -- Doc Smartass

[Jimbo]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation
for what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could
you please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics,
and Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may
await them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or
cowards?.
Heike Hoffmann

Weaklings?  Fools?
There are lots of possibilities.  I don't know how well my rational faculties will be
operating in my last hours.  I'm a mammal, same as everyone else, and prone
to animal-based passions and instincts.  I have lots of moments when my first
impulse (and sometimes, my final one) doesn't meet my own standards, when
I'm working harder at being who I think I ought to be, have learned to be.

There may also be an element of an agnostic or atheist who is in the
process of dying, with religous family members putting the squeeze on
them and the soon to be deceased sighs and says, "Whatever, if it will
give them some comfort then I'll go through the motions."

[Richo]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?.

Most of them didnt happen - they are ussually false stories concocted
by the faithfull.
"Pious lies"

Post by Heike Hoffmann
As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation
for what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could
you please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics,
and Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may
await them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or
cowards?.

The trouble is I cant understand how this could happen.
Which God to choose? Which Hell to avoid?
Its the same problem as with Pascals Wager.

The only way to have a death bed conversion that I can imagine is that
you already *secretly* believed in a god but were "angry" with your
god.
Which is to say the only way I can imagine it happening wouldnt be a
true conversion - just a reversion to your previously repressed faith.

How common are these "secret" believers? I suspect its pretty uncommon
(and temporary - such a state of denial might last years - but for
most people it would resolve)

Should they be viewed as Hypcrites or Cowards? (If they exist - which
I am still skeptical about)
I can't really say - I cant confidently predict how I would feel if I
ever encounter such a thing - I suspect I would just feel sad (and
confused) and sorry for them.

Post by Heike Hoffmann
Heike Hoffmann

Mark.

[altheim]

Post by Richo

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?.

Most of them didnt happen - they are ussually false stories concocted
by the faithfull.
"Pious lies"

Post by Heike Hoffmann
As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation
for what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could
you please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics,
and Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may
await them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or
cowards?.

The trouble is I cant understand how this could happen.
Which God to choose? Which Hell to avoid?
Its the same problem as with Pascals Wager.
The only way to have a death bed conversion that I can imagine is that
you already *secretly* believed in a god but were "angry" with your
god.
Which is to say the only way I can imagine it happening wouldnt be a
true conversion - just a reversion to your previously repressed faith.
How common are these "secret" believers? I suspect its pretty uncommon
(and temporary - such a state of denial might last years - but for
most people it would resolve)
Should they be viewed as Hypcrites or Cowards? (If they exist - which
I am still skeptical about)
I can't really say - I cant confidently predict how I would feel if I
ever encounter such a thing - I suspect I would just feel sad (and
confused) and sorry for them.

Realistically, I think it is only fair to say that we humans all feel
the emotion of fear and so no-one should be ridiculed or castigated
for giving in to, what may amount to be, extreme fear at (probably)
the most critical point in one's life; imminent death.

I think you may be right to call it a reversion to faith rather than a
conversion. An atheist-to-the-end would hardly feel any need to
convert.

Post by Richo

Post by Heike Hoffmann
Heike Hoffmann

Mark.

[Smiler.]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?.

As fallacies.

<snip bullshit>

[raven1]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:58:24 -0700 (PDT), Heike Hoffmann

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?

As wildly unlikely.

[Smiler.]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?.

As fallacies.

<snip bullshit>

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation
for what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could
you please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics,
and Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may
await them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or
cowards?.
Heike Hoffmann

I view them with suspicion. The one time I thought *I* was going to
die (motor-racing accident), theism never entered my mind (I was
actually thinking about the women I'd known in my life, and bemoaning
my "missed chances" with a couple of them). Although, as Apostate
said, if my death comes slowly, there's no telling what I might do or
say in the throws of delerium.

Personally, I'm hoping to go out in my sleep. If that happens, then
it'll be a non-issue anyway. <g>

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/Member, Knights of BAAWA!

[Uncle Vic]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
Personally, I'm hoping to go out in my sleep. If that happens, then
it'll be a non-issue anyway. <g>

Me, I hope to be able to give a rebel yell on the way out. Maybe a moment
of pain, then nothing.

[Apostate]

Post by p***@hotmail.com

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation
for what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could
you please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics,
and Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may
await them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or
cowards?.
Heike Hoffmann

I view them with suspicion. The one time I thought *I* was going to
die (motor-racing accident), theism never entered my mind (I was
actually thinking about the women I'd known in my life, and bemoaning
my "missed chances" with a couple of them). Although, as Apostate
said, if my death comes slowly, there's no telling what I might do or
say in the throws of delerium.
Personally, I'm hoping to go out in my sleep. If that happens, then
it'll be a non-issue anyway. <g>

Well, unless your last few minutes are spent dreaming of being Jonas, to Chthulu's whale.

Now that's a screamer.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/Member, Knights of BAAWA!

--
Apostate alt.atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Deputy Director in Charge of Being Paid,
Department of Redundancy Department

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure
and the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell

"Mr. Worf, set phasers on "Fuck You" and fire at will."
. -- Doc Smartass

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by Apostate

Post by p***@hotmail.com

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation
for what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could
you please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics,
and Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may
await them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or
cowards?.
Heike Hoffmann

I view them with suspicion. The one time I thought *I* was going to
die (motor-racing accident), theism never entered my mind (I was
actually thinking about the women I'd known in my life, and bemoaning
my "missed chances" with a couple of them). Although, as Apostate
said, if my death comes slowly, there's no telling what I might do or
say in the throws of delerium.
Personally, I'm hoping to go out in my sleep. If that happens, then
it'll be a non-issue anyway. <g>

Well, unless your last few minutes are spent dreaming of being Jonas, to Chthulu's whale.
Now that's a screamer.

Well, at least in my Cthulhu dreams, I'm always eaten first...<g>

-PF, Atl.
etc.

[huge]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation for
what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could you
please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics, and
Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may await
them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or cowards?.
Heike Hoffmann

I have seen quite a few people die, and it is a rather rare thing
that they are still in their right mind near death. This is usually
*physical* brain damage caused by lack of oxygen, cancer, and
other physical problems. People who convert near
death reflect fear and diminished capacity -- just like
your average theist.

[Albert van der Horst]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be

I would like to see a well-documented conversion.
However all victims are by definition dead.
And the priests doing the conversion are by definition delusional.

Why do I even follow up on this?

Post by Heike Hoffmann
Heike Hoffmann

Groetjes Albert

--

[huge]

In article

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be

I would like to see a well-documented conversion. However all victims
are by definition dead. And the priests doing the conversion are by
definition delusional.
Why do I even follow up on this?

Post by Heike Hoffmann
Heike Hoffmann

Groetjes Albert
--

It happened to Larry Flynt, publisher of
Hustler magazine, after being shot a number of times by a
fundie psychopath. He was near death and went through
a conversion.

As soon as he began to recover he renounced the conversion,
saying that he had been delusional and suffering from dementia.
Temporary brain damage accounted for it; of course a damaged
brain would be more susceptible to religious bullcrap.

Another famous case was of the notorious libertine poet
John Wilmot, 2nd Earl of Rochester, 1647-1680, as he went
down from the effects of numerous venereal diseases and alcoholism.
The Bishop of Salisbury spent weeks working on the poor bastard
and, by his *own* widely published reports, got a conversion.
This was backed up by some witnesses, but you have to remember
the physical affects that advanced syphilis and alcohol have on the brain.

And then, almost every hospital has a 'Chaplin.' These Gomers are
allowed to roam the halls, visiting any patient they wish. You would
naturally expect a few of the brain damaged patients to succumb
to the attentions of anyone at a time of fear and pain.

[Jimbo]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation
for what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could
you please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics,
and Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may
await them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or
cowards?.
Heike Hoffmann

When my Great Aunt was dying, who had been an agnostic most of her
life, my Cousin called in a priest that gave her last rites, and
prayed "with" her as did most of the rest of the family. The priest
(Methodist I think) and many of our family members went away saying
that it had been a miraculous deathbed conversion!

Of course, the only problem with that is that she had slipped into a
coma three days prior and never regained conciousness..

So, I'm supposing that there are probably hypocrites on both sides of
that question.

[Trance Gemini]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation for
what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could you
please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics, and
Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may await
them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or cowards?.

Assuming that it is true that people convert on their deathbeds (although
I can't imagine why anyone would) I would be attribute it to the fact
that when we die we are essentially losing our faculties because of
diminished oxygen to the brain amongst other things.

I wouldn't say that anyone who did that was a hypocrite or a coward, just
someone whose faculties aren't all there and would give the "conversion"
exactly that much appropriate credibility (none).

[Bob Casanova]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:58:24 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by Heike Hoffmann

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?. As you may be
aware, a deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious
faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may
reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-
term beliefs, or to complete a process of conversion already underway.
Some believe that the imminence of death concentrates the mind, and
propels a desire for people to put their lives aright in preparation
for what they consider to await them after death. Specifically, could
you please tell me if you personally believe that Atheists, Agnostics,
and Deists who make such deathbed conversions out of fear of what may
await them in the afterlife should be viewed as hypocrites and/or
cowards?.

It's a variation of Pascal's Wager, especially for those who
bet on being "born again", rather than on good deeds, as the
key.

[L.Roberts]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?
Heike Hoffmann

As outright fabrications, stretches of the imagination or the
productions of minds that have been blown.

I have had several occasions on which I became aware that I could die
at any moment and not once did I think of 'God', just something like
"Oh, so this is how it ends for me.", or "Oh shit!" And that even
though I have a very stupid, very superstitious, so called Christian,
background. And then, on each occasion it was like a fucking miracle
happened, I survived. :- ) Fucking gods, they just gotta fuck with ya,
ya know? : - )

L.Roberts
Atheist

[Don Martin]

Post by L.Roberts

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?
Heike Hoffmann

As outright fabrications, stretches of the imagination or the
productions of minds that have been blown.
I have had several occasions on which I became aware that I could die
at any moment and not once did I think of 'God', just something like
"Oh, so this is how it ends for me.", or "Oh shit!" And that even
though I have a very stupid, very superstitious, so called Christian,
background. And then, on each occasion it was like a fucking miracle
happened, I survived. :- ) Fucking gods, they just gotta fuck with ya,
ya know? : - )
L.Roberts
Atheist

I once read somewhere that the most frequent last word on flight
recorder tapes was "shit!" I have no reason to doubt it.

[huge]

Post by Don Martin

Post by L.Roberts

How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions? Heike Hoffmann

As outright fabrications, stretches of the imagination or the
productions of minds that have been blown.
I have had several occasions on which I became aware that I could die
at any moment and not once did I think of 'God', just something like
"Oh, so this is how it ends for me.", or "Oh shit!" And that even
though I have a very stupid, very superstitious, so called Christian,
background. And then, on each occasion it was like a fucking miracle
happened, I survived. :- ) Fucking gods, they just gotta fuck with ya,
ya know? : - )
L.Roberts
Atheist

I once read somewhere that the most frequent last word on flight
recorder tapes was "shit!" I have no reason to doubt it.

I've witnessed many dozens of leader falls on rock climbs.
Shit and fuck lead. I've only heard "Oh, God!" once.

[Don Martin]

Post by huge

Post by Don Martin

Post by L.Roberts

How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions? Heike Hoffmann

As outright fabrications, stretches of the imagination or the
productions of minds that have been blown.
I have had several occasions on which I became aware that I could die
at any moment and not once did I think of 'God', just something like
"Oh, so this is how it ends for me.", or "Oh shit!" And that even
though I have a very stupid, very superstitious, so called Christian,
background. And then, on each occasion it was like a fucking miracle
happened, I survived. :- ) Fucking gods, they just gotta fuck with ya,
ya know? : - )
L.Roberts
Atheist

I once read somewhere that the most frequent last word on flight
recorder tapes was "shit!"  I have no reason to doubt it.

I've witnessed many dozens of leader falls on rock climbs.
Shit and fuck lead.  I've only heard "Oh, God!" once.

Now that you mention it, "Oh, God!" would not be bleeped on those
videos of persons doing grievous harm to themselves, yet most of the
sound track is bleeped at the crucial moment.

[Anthrax Mailer]

Post by Heike Hoffmann
How do Atheists view so-called deathbed conversions?

First off, only insane cultists capitalize the word "atheists."

Second off, do you have any verified examples of any "death bed
confessions?"

---
Does belief in astrology cause insanity? http://www.skeptictank.org/edm.htm